Conductors are the most conservative people I know
Brigitte Fassbaender in conversation with Opernwelt
This is a compilation of three shortened interviews from 2009, 2014 and 2022.
1
From Hänsel to Cherubino and Orlofsky in "Die Fledermaus", you have never missed a trouser role. What the Marschallin was for Schwarzkopf, became for you Octavian, the "young gentleman from a great house", which you sang for the first time in 1967.
That was the old Hartmann production in Munich, where I was allowed to stand in when my great colleague was unavailable. And then there was the legendary Otto Schenk/Carlos Kleiber production in 1972/73, where I sang the premiere - from then on I was the "Rosenkavalier on duty". As a mezzo-soprano, you are predestined for the trouser roles if you are reasonably slim. In my case, it was a lifelong struggle to always have to fit into these pants: There were diets after every vacation; it was very exhausting.
How did you experience Carlos Kleiber?
He was certainly very difficult, but also incredibly funny and collegial and companionable. He demanded a lot from himself and just as much from his colleagues. He was never satisfied and constantly doubted what he had achieved. If a singer made a mistake on stage - and I don't know of any Strauss opera that goes off without a hitch, because the rhythmic material is very difficult - then he was personally affected, as if someone had deliberately wanted to offend him. That was nonsense, of course. Then there were the deathly sad letters in the dressing room: "Why did you do this to me?" Finally, he came himself and insisted on a sixteenth rest. You always had to keep an eye on him to catch everything, all his emotional outbursts on the podium. When he met people who were similarly minded, the collaboration worked. I was very, very impressed by him. He still appears in my dreams, by the way. I also really admired him as a man, a really great guy.
Brigitte Fassbaender also exists as Carmen. In 1968, "Opera" wrote about her performance that she was the "most beautiful and haunting" of all...
I'm delighted. I once sang Carmen in a Ponnelle production in Frankfurt. I always thought the cliché with the arms propped up on the hips and all that was stupid. With Ponnelle, she was a real child-woman, as young as Merimée had in mind, barefoot and childlike.
As a mezzo, are you sometimes envious of your soprano colleagues, of the prima donnas?
I never was. I've always felt content in my own fach and apart from the "Wozzeck" Marie, I've never ventured into the soprano fach. Well, I love Puccini - I would have loved to have sung Tosca once, but Charlotte in "Werther" was a bit of an equivalent. I was a completely normal mezzo-soprano, my voice tended more towards the depths, and so I gradually grew from a purely lyric mezzo-soprano into a somewhat more dramatic range, having sung all the Italian roles. But with caution! I never wanted to become one of those "traveling Eboli", I also wanted to sing concerts and songs.
In 1995, you announced in a sober letter that you were ending your singing career.
I loved and hated this profession endlessly, torn between despair and flying high. I didn't want to experience any loss of vitality, I always wanted to work at full power. When I realized that I wasn't always living up to my own standards, I thought it was time to stop before it was dictated to me from the outside. Even as a very young singer, I had already decided to quit at my peak. Besides, I had already developed a second career - directing.
As a singer, you worked with directors such as Günther Rennert, Jean-Pierre Ponnelle and Harry Kupfer, who directed very much from the score, from the music ...
And then came directors from the theater, Otto Schenk, August Everding and so on; nowadays it's common practice for theater directors to do opera. I think that's also legitimate if they can read music. You have to bring the piece to life, not just your own thoughts. You have to perform a piece in such a way that it is accepted and appreciated by the audience. After all, opera is not an end in itself: we make theater with people for people. Today, working on the text is just as important as working on the music.
But isn't it a strange discrepancy that libretti are read against the grain for our time, perhaps even changed, but in the musical field one wants to be as "authentic" as possible?
That's because conductors are the most conservative people I know. No matter how vehemently a production team may advocate a concept, the conductor will reject anything that incorporates so-called "contemporary" thinking. Very few conductors, even among the younger ones, are prepared to embark on an intellectual adventure. They usually just bury their heads in the score.
2
You often complain that there are fewer and fewer distinctive voices. How does that happen?
Because of the media overload. And the perfection of recording technology. Many singers sound like they're ready-made - and look like it too. It has to be loud and effective. And everyone sings against their own image. All this also happens because people sing far too much heavy repertoire too early in big houses and ruin themselves. Okay, these sources of danger have always existed. But everything has become much more fast-paced. There are hardly any long careers any more.
So you wouldn't want to start your career in this day and age?
Oh yes, I would! I would even accept it as a great challenge. You need a lot of common sense and someone you can trust. Vocal supervision is good. I received that from my father - and from my own early teaching, which teaches you what to do and what not to do. Perhaps I was sometimes too hesitant and had too many scruples ...
Was it okay to be hesitant? What was the mezzo competition like at the time?
I was just like that. There was a lot of competition. But the mezzos all wanted to be sopranos. But if you have a really dramatic mezzo voice, you should stick with it. There aren't that many of them. In general, there is hardly any voice development in opera houses any more. Young singers need basic work. There used to be more knowledgeable artistic directors. Today, they like to legitimize themselves through capacity utilization, not quality. What is also important is not just vocal development, but personal development. The constant distraction that you experience through the internet and so on prevents you from concentrating on your profession. After all, it should be a passion. I often find that young singers come to rehearsals or courses quite unprepared. I used to try to live as normally as possible. Nevertheless, you have to accept an enormous number of restrictions and exercise discipline and common sense. After all, the profession is associated with oversized navel-gazing. I've also gone over the top, but I was robust enough to always be able to do what was expected of me.
Is opera easier because you can hide behind a costume?
Of course it is.
And why did you, who was so plagued by nerves, expose yourself to the Lied?
Because a Lied-recital is much more satisfying when it succeeds. The process of exhaustion and happiness is like nothing else. You can be completely with yourself, you don't pretend. You are intellectually challenged in a completely different way. And you are your own director and dramaturge.
What kind of satisfaction is that?
After an opera performance, you're under a huge dose of adrenaline. And in song, it's simply more intimate, differently intense. Of course, the jubilation at the curtain call is wonderful. You're on cloud nine for a while. But it fizzles out in a strange way.
Are you still nervous, even at your premieres as a director? Haven't you developed a Teflon skin yet?
No. I can't go into my premieres. I'm so electrified that I drive everyone around me crazy. Because I notice every little thing that's different from what we agreed. But I go straight to the second performance - and say something if necessary.
As a singer, did you always come to rehearsals with a ready-made role concept?
Never. I always put myself at the mercy of the directors. I had very good ones: Günther Rennert, Jean-Pierre Ponnelle, Götz Friedrich, Harry Kupfer, Otto Schenk in his heyday ... Of course I gave it some thought, developed a framework. But I was always completely open.
3
Let's stay with the "Ring". It's a very reduced production, because not much else is possible in Erl. This purism should suit you.
Absolutely. I love the Passionsspielhaus, I find the atmosphere incredibly evocative. There is a closeness to the audience. In principle, I work out of a reduction, becoming more and more sparse, wanting to concentrate more and more on the essentials. And for me, that's the people on stage and not the fuss around them. Apart from that, the history of the "Ring's" reception shows that everything has been done before. Whatever new thing you try as a director: It's already been done. And if you throw the baby out with the bathwater, as has just happened in Bayreuth, and try to be original at the drop of a hat, then things tend to go wrong. Wagner was a genius as a theater person, I don't have to tutor him as a director. How much do you think I would like to get around this swordplay in "Siegfried"! But I have to face up to it - and I can't introduce a pistol as a substitute. Ultimately, the "Ring" remains a myth that cannot be denied. Even if the statement remains valid: "Siegfried", for example, is a fairy tale.
Do you feel like a relic with this purist attitude?
No, for me it is a matter of course to focus on the essentials. Of course, there are pieces where you can - and must - work more elaborately. The visuals are enormously important. But when there are video screens on stage, for example, the people performing are no longer even noticed. This kind of thing is often used when the director doesn't know what to do with the chorus. An indictment of poor staging. There's a nice saying: "If the director doesn't know what to do - video and dry ice ..."
Would you have dared to do the "Ring" ten years ago?
I should have done it ten or fifteen years ago - in London. But it didn't happen for financial reasons. I'm glad that it's only now that the time has come. I have the inner peace and serenity to go all the way. Nothing is rushed anymore. I'm now able to take my inner time. And Erl is a wonderful, magical place for that.
Was there ever a moment during the production when you said to yourself: "I'd like to have sung that myself now"?
Of course! That's when I think: "My God, why is she or he doing it like that now?" Sometimes I'm asked to work on the vocal technique. I do so, but with the utmost caution. It can be very unsettling under certain circumstances, and that's not good for the production process. After all, some problems can't be resolved before the premiere.
Siegfried Jerusalem once said that he had to move constantly on stage to keep his voice relaxed.
Absolutely right. Standing around is not good for the emotional and therefore also technical development, for the emotional breath, as I always call it. But most of the singers I work with want action. I can actually quickly reach the stage where they open up and trust me.
You once complained that the distinctiveness of voices is being lost. Is this also the case with the type of singer? Will they soon all look like something out of a glossy catalog?
I don't work with them anyway. These are the stars who arrive just five days before the premiere. That doesn't happen at all in smaller and medium-sized theaters, where there is still real ensemble work. What is an issue, however, is the gym. The young singers pay a lot of attention to their stable, muscular physique - and are then completely tense thanks to such studios. I see that time and time again. I then say: "Singing is sport enough. Do it with maximum effort! And please do the rest in moderation." Overtraining your muscles is really bad for singing. Just like drinking a lot of water. They guzzle it down by the liter, the bottle is always with them, even on the podium at concerts. They think it helps. But it goes down the gullet. If you sing properly, there is enough saliva flow to moisten the oral cavity. We didn't drink as much water in the past. And there wasn't as much reflux as there is today.
But aren't they being driven to the gyms because type casting and body shaming are becoming increasingly important?
Much more so for women than for men. There are tenors who really aren't beauties, but still go on to have world careers. You're right, of course: today, casting at the big houses is almost exclusively based on type, and there's this youth craze. And that hits many women particularly hard. A big, voluminous voice needs a certain "bed" in which to rest. Montserrat Caballé or Margaret Price would hardly stand a chance today. To a certain extent, external styling goes hand in hand with internal styling. That's why this smoothness comes about. That is why there is a lack of courage for absolute individuality.
Is education also to blame? Because it produces standardized types of artists?
Probably. Although I can't really judge that, because I only work in master classes. What I actually experience there is a reluctance to take risks. Everything should be as well-behaved and orderly as possible. I was also shy and reserved as a very young singer and first had to learn to open up and surrender myself on the podium. That's a long process. Allowing and learning that the audience is also voyeuristic is not that easy. But the more you understand your craft, the more willing and able you are to express yourself. I've always had this discrepancy between shyness and devotion. That's probably why I developed a love-hate relationship with this profession.
Peter Konwitschny always says that rehearsal is real life for him. And when you step out of the stage door onto the street?
Oh, others say that too. I don't take that seriously. It's a pose. It's clear that you love your profession and are addicted to it. But you have to live and experience enriches the profession. I still live from observing people, from researching people. The human being is a highly interesting creature - the best acting school. The first years of singing go by like a rush. You experience so much that you can't even categorize. You become aware of things later. Today I see things more calmly, well, let's say: a little more calmly. I can still get really upset about sloppiness, which is getting worse and worse in the theater. Or, for example, about the fact that the ensembles are getting smaller and smaller and the few remaining members have to go from one production to another without a break - and are constantly on stage in the evenings during a rehearsal period.
Are you actually glad that you had a career in your time?
I would definitely take up this profession today. It would be interesting to see whether I would be so challenged again and get so far under today's circumstances. In principle, not much has changed in the theater. What has changed is the possibility of non-stop self-promotion. But overall, the rhythm has remained the same. The laws for developing a voice are also the same. What has changed massively, however, is that there are fewer and fewer voice experts. On all sides. And life in the virtual space is becoming ever more intense - with correspondingly tiring and dangerous distractions.
Power structures are also changing. Men can no longer get away with everything. You yourself cited examples in your autobiography, from Plácido Domingo to Georg Solti.
Things are beginning to change, mind you. But the mentality of some people isn't changing, they seem to be at the mercy of their impulses. However, they are no longer allowed to do as they please. But one tendency still exists: if you're blonde, slim and have a nice cleavage, you get hired. I could name names ... If this or that person is on the jury, then that person has a chance, it still happens all the time. And I shouldn't have written about my kissing experiences with Domingo in "Werther". He was a Don Juan par excellence. You stood in line with him. Today, you can defend yourself if you want to. And I think it's good that people speak out and that men have to expect consequences. What's more, the tone in the theater has changed. Verbal and physical attacks are no longer acceptable, thank goodness.
So there will be fewer and fewer maestri and divas?
There will always be. But that doesn't mean they have to behave badly.